(no commit message provided)

+tag:

+ - personal

+abstract: A short essay on my thoughts upon first hearing Holst's Saturn.

+* [My List of Lists](https://github.com/harleypig/list-religious-study)

+* [Journal of Discourses](https://journalofdiscourses.com)

+* [Blue Letter Bible](https://blueletter.org)

+* [NetBible](https//netbible.org)

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+ "selftext": "I refer to the verse in [Moses](https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/1.35?lang=eng#34) where the Lord is explaining the vision Moses had of the vastness of the universe.\n\nThis thought, and probably associated thoughts with it, are not well thought out nor well-formed. I wanted to get them out though. I am profoundly affected by something I have just read, but not in a negative way.\n\n[This](http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/05/the-astonishing-age-of-a-neanderthal-cave-construction-site/484070/) article describes a cave recently studied by scientists where they discovered stalagmites (and I think stalactites) have been deliberately broken off and formed into what appear to be ritualistic constructs. The material predates Homo sapiens, so it had to have been Neanderthals.\n\nThe more we find out about this race, the more curious I get. Just what relationship do we have with them? What relationship did Adam and Eve have with them?\n\nThe part of this that so profoundly affects me is that they've dated the time of this activity to 175,000 years ago! They link the study in the article, but for the lazy amongst you :], here's a [link](http://nature.com/articles/doi:10.1038/nature18291). Hence, my wondering if the verse would be better understood as \"But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, *and only the current epoch,* give I unto you.\"\n\nWhile I'm intensely curious, I'm also aware that this has nothing to do with my salvation, and thus does not require study before anything else. Also, as I stated at the beginning, my thoughts on this are disorganized at the moment.\n\nI am curious as to any thoughts anyone has about this.",

+ "selftext_html": "<!-- SC_OFF --><div class=\"md\"><p>I refer to the verse in <a href=\"https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/1.35?lang=eng#34\">Moses</a> where the Lord is explaining the vision Moses had of the vastness of the universe.</p>\n\n<p>This thought, and probably associated thoughts with it, are not well thought out nor well-formed. I wanted to get them out though. I am profoundly affected by something I have just read, but not in a negative way.</p>\n\n<p><a href=\"http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/05/the-astonishing-age-of-a-neanderthal-cave-construction-site/484070/\">This</a> article describes a cave recently studied by scientists where they discovered stalagmites (and I think stalactites) have been deliberately broken off and formed into what appear to be ritualistic constructs. The material predates Homo sapiens, so it had to have been Neanderthals.</p>\n\n<p>The more we find out about this race, the more curious I get. Just what relationship do we have with them? What relationship did Adam and Eve have with them?</p>\n\n<p>The part of this that so profoundly affects me is that they've dated the time of this activity to 175,000 years ago! They link the study in the article, but for the lazy amongst you :], here's a <a href=\"http://nature.com/articles/doi:10.1038/nature18291\">link</a>. Hence, my wondering if the verse would be better understood as "But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, <em>and only the current epoch,</em> give I unto you."</p>\n\n<p>While I'm intensely curious, I'm also aware that this has nothing to do with my salvation, and thus does not require study before anything else. Also, as I stated at the beginning, my thoughts on this are disorganized at the moment.</p>\n\n<p>I am curious as to any thoughts anyone has about this.</p>\n</div><!-- SC_ON -->",

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+ "title": "We know we are given \"only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof,\" but perhaps we should add a \"and only this epoch\" qualifier to this statement.",

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+ "body": "[Nibley probably would have agreed](http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=997&index=1):\n\n\n> Do not begrudge existence to creatures that looked like men long, long ago, nor deny them a place in God's affection or even a right to exaltation—for our scriptures allow them such. Nor am I overly concerned as to just when they might have lived, for their world is not our world. They have all gone away long before our people ever appeared. God assigned them their proper times and functions, as he has given me mine—a full-time job that admonishes me to remember his words to the overly eager Moses: \"For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.\" (Moses 1:31.) \n\n> It is Adam as my own parent who concerns me. When he walks onto the stage, then and only then the play begins. He opens a book and starts calling out names. They are the sons of Adam, who also qualify as sons of God, Adam himself being a son of God... The representative Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans, to name only the classic civilizations of old, each fancied themselves to be beings of a higher nature, nearer to gods than others who inhabited the land with them (and before them), or who dwelt in other lands. And yet they did not deny humanity to them.\n\n> Adam becomes Adam, a hominid becomes a man, when he starts keeping a record. \n\nIn other words, Nibley also felt this epoch is our epoch. Or epoch is concerning the family of Adam. But that should not cause us to diminish the goodness of other epochs that went on before. ",

+ "body_html": "<div class=\"md\"><p><a href=\"http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=997&index=1\">Nibley probably would have agreed</a>:</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>Do not begrudge existence to creatures that looked like men long, long ago, nor deny them a place in God's affection or even a right to exaltation—for our scriptures allow them such. Nor am I overly concerned as to just when they might have lived, for their world is not our world. They have all gone away long before our people ever appeared. God assigned them their proper times and functions, as he has given me mine—a full-time job that admonishes me to remember his words to the overly eager Moses: "For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me." (Moses 1:31.) </p>\n\n<p>It is Adam as my own parent who concerns me. When he walks onto the stage, then and only then the play begins. He opens a book and starts calling out names. They are the sons of Adam, who also qualify as sons of God, Adam himself being a son of God... The representative Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, and Romans, to name only the classic civilizations of old, each fancied themselves to be beings of a higher nature, nearer to gods than others who inhabited the land with them (and before them), or who dwelt in other lands. And yet they did not deny humanity to them.</p>\n\n<p>Adam becomes Adam, a hominid becomes a man, when he starts keeping a record. </p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>In other words, Nibley also felt this epoch is our epoch. Or epoch is concerning the family of Adam. But that should not cause us to diminish the goodness of other epochs that went on before. </p>\n</div>",

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+ "body": "That fits pretty well with my thinking. I don't have any firm opinions on this, but if we found that Adam as \"the first Man\" is \"the first human with whom God made a covenant\" I'd be okay with that. ",

+ "body_html": "<div class=\"md\"><p>That fits pretty well with my thinking. I don't have any firm opinions on this, but if we found that Adam as "the first Man" is "the first human with whom God made a covenant" I'd be okay with that. </p>\n</div>",

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+ "body": "> if we found that Adam as \"the first Man\" is \"the first human with whom God made a covenant\" I'd be okay with that.\n\nThat's my personal belief. One who made that phase transition of understanding good versus evil with a desire choose the good, build alters (covenants) and offer prayers. And with that phase transition began a new era with Man receiving special instruction (the gospel) from God. An era that continues today making us part of that same family. The family of Adam. \n\nAnd that he might be a [recent common ancestor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor). We know that humans have recent common ancestors if you back several thousand years. ",

+ "body_html": "<div class=\"md\"><blockquote>\n<p>if we found that Adam as "the first Man" is "the first human with whom God made a covenant" I'd be okay with that.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>That's my personal belief. One who made that phase transition of understanding good versus evil with a desire choose the good, build alters (covenants) and offer prayers. And with that phase transition began a new era with Man receiving special instruction (the gospel) from God. An era that continues today making us part of that same family. The family of Adam. </p>\n\n<p>And that he might be a <a href=\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor\">recent common ancestor</a>. We know that humans have recent common ancestors if you back several thousand years. </p>\n</div>",

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+ "body": "There is evidence that yet another hominid species, [*Homo Naledi*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_naledi), was burying their dead probably even earlier than that.\n\nIt's so fascinating. ",

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+ "body": "I just think we will one day find out that Adam and Eve lived long earlier than we thought they did based on the calculations of a medieval Christian trying to figure out how old the world is based on a fragmented, flawed, and incomplete book.\n\nPerhaps we will find out that when Genesis talks about the sons of God marrying the daughters of men it is covering a half-forgotten ancestral memory about homo sapiens inbreeding with Neanderthals, or some such thing.",

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+ "selftext": "In programming, we have the concept of a \"black box.\" The ideal black box is stated simply as \"for any input given the same output will be returned.\" No knowledge or understanding of the inner workings of the black box is required to know what the output will be for a given input, once received.\n\nGod is a black box. If we give him the same input time and again, we'll get the same output. This is true for us as individuals, communities and nations. And man as a whole as well.\n\nThis is why we have a God who can both order the brutal slayings of every living thing -- down to unborn children and plowing under of all plants -- and to suffer children to come unto him. A turn of phrase I have come to understand in much greater detail since having my own children.\n\nJust thought I'd share a personal solidification of an idea that's been bouncing around for awhile.",

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+ "body": "Really brings home the idea that God is both unchanging and unknowable. Some of us may gain a little insight into the black box, either via experimentation or direct revelation of a portion of the internal logic. Sometimes prophets pass this on to everyone at large, but the remainder of the logic is still hidden, and there's no way to control for every input variable.\n\nI suppose the issue for some is that we have this natural drive to know \"why\". The concept of a black box is anathema to our curious nature and it's hard to have faith in something we don't understand.\n\n",

+ "body_html": "<div class=\"md\"><p>Really brings home the idea that God is both unchanging and unknowable. Some of us may gain a little insight into the black box, either via experimentation or direct revelation of a portion of the internal logic. Sometimes prophets pass this on to everyone at large, but the remainder of the logic is still hidden, and there's no way to control for every input variable.</p>\n\n<p>I suppose the issue for some is that we have this natural drive to know "why". The concept of a black box is anathema to our curious nature and it's hard to have faith in something we don't understand.</p>\n</div>",

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+ "body": "> God is a black box. If we give him the same input time and again, we'll get the same output. This is true for us as individuals, communities and nations. And man as a whole as well.\n\nAs stated I don't think I agree. We're not mechanistic, and neither is God. In programming terms, God has internal state, as we (and countries, economies, communities, etc.) do, that affects the output for any input in non-trivial ways.\n",

+ "body_html": "<div class=\"md\"><blockquote>\n<p>God is a black box. If we give him the same input time and again, we'll get the same output. This is true for us as individuals, communities and nations. And man as a whole as well.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>As stated I don't think I agree. We're not mechanistic, and neither is God. In programming terms, God has internal state, as we (and countries, economies, communities, etc.) do, that affects the output for any input in non-trivial ways.</p>\n</div>",

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+ "body": "I understand your objection. But I don't think mechanistic is a bad thing. I think we are mechanistic, at least to a degree. Habits, good and bad, are mechanistic behaviors.\n\nI set the rules and consequences for my children. I explain them to my children. When my children break the rules, the consequence has already been set. There is no discussion, at least on my end. The consequence is applied. This is mechanistic.\n\n[James](https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/james/1.17?#16) said\n\n> Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17\n\nAnd [Joseph Smith](https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.21?#20) had this to say;\n\n> And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. D&C 130:21\n\nThis is mechanistic. This doesn't change how much I care for my children, nor how much God cares for us.\n\nIf our internal state has not changed, then the input has not changed, so neither should the output change. But if our internal state has changed, the input will be different, so the output will be different.\n\nGod's internal state is not relevant to us because it is unknowable by us. The only thing we do know is that God is unchanging.\n\nNow the next question is, of course, are we passed by value or by reference?",

+ "body_html": "<div class=\"md\"><p>I understand your objection. But I don't think mechanistic is a bad thing. I think we are mechanistic, at least to a degree. Habits, good and bad, are mechanistic behaviors.</p>\n\n<p>I set the rules and consequences for my children. I explain them to my children. When my children break the rules, the consequence has already been set. There is no discussion, at least on my end. The consequence is applied. This is mechanistic.</p>\n\n<p><a href=\"https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/james/1.17?#16\">James</a> said</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>And <a href=\"https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.21?#20\">Joseph Smith</a> had this to say;</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated. D&C 130:21</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>This is mechanistic. This doesn't change how much I care for my children, nor how much God cares for us.</p>\n\n<p>If our internal state has not changed, then the input has not changed, so neither should the output change. But if our internal state has changed, the input will be different, so the output will be different.</p>\n\n<p>God's internal state is not relevant to us because it is unknowable by us. The only thing we do know is that God is unchanging.</p>\n\n<p>Now the next question is, of course, are we passed by value or by reference?</p>\n</div>",

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+ "body": "> I understand your objection. But I don't think mechanistic is a bad thing. I think we are mechanistic, at least to a degree. Habits, good and bad, are mechanistic behaviors.\n\nI'm not sure you do understand my objection. I'm not arguing only from preference, but from the facts and the definitions of what is and isn't mechanistic and separately, from the scriptures.\n\n> If our internal state has not changed, then the input has not changed, so neither should the output change. But if our internal state has changed, the input will be different, so the output will be different.\n\nNo, it's simply not the case that you get the same output for the same input when dealing with people (or with God, but I'll set that to the side for now). That idea was essentially behind behaviorist psychology, but it's been completely disproven experimentally and theoretically. Doing so took decades of work, but the easy/brief way to look at this is that for input to drive output, that means that internal states are irrelevant (behaviorism's argument was that behavior is all that matters, and that it could be predicted and controlled by sensory input). But it's easy to show that for the very same inputs, output behavior varies widely. Moreover, it's easy to show that with *no* input, output behavior varies -- something that could not happen if input drove output.\n\nFrom another POV, the question of whether something is mechanistic vs. complex and emergent is in many ways the heart of complexity science and systems thinking. Again, this is a huge area that I don't want to belabor here, but the short of it is that anything with sufficient internal structure and interconnections creates an emergent system where the overall behavior is not mechanistic and may be completely impossible to predict. We see this all the time in everything from people to economies to flocks of birds. \n\nAt any rate the point is that describing people -- much less Diety! -- as machine-like is simply off-base both in terms of the science and the theological sides.\n\n> set the rules and consequences for my children. I explain them to my children. When my children break the rules, the consequence has already been set. There is no discussion, at least on my end. \n\nI'm guessing your kids may still be pretty young. The idea that \"there's no discussion\" isn't going to last through their teen-age years!\n\nGod isn't mechanistic: consider, why is killing another person sometimes murder and sometimes not? Why is offering sacrifice sometimes honored and sometimes not? \n\n> And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.\n\nThis isn't a mechanism, it's a principle. There's a *huge* difference. A principle is not mechanistic, based on outward actions, but takes into account adherence to eternal truth and the intent of the individual.\n\nWe know that with God it is ultimately *not* the \"output state\" that matters, but the internal state that we are unable to see: \n\n1 Samuel 16:7\n> the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.\n\nAll that said...\n> Now the next question is, of course, are we passed by value or by reference?\n\nI dearly hope it's not by reference. I'd hate to see one bad pointer ruin the entire universe.",

+ "body_html": "<div class=\"md\"><blockquote>\n<p>I understand your objection. But I don't think mechanistic is a bad thing. I think we are mechanistic, at least to a degree. Habits, good and bad, are mechanistic behaviors.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>I'm not sure you do understand my objection. I'm not arguing only from preference, but from the facts and the definitions of what is and isn't mechanistic and separately, from the scriptures.</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>If our internal state has not changed, then the input has not changed, so neither should the output change. But if our internal state has changed, the input will be different, so the output will be different.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>No, it's simply not the case that you get the same output for the same input when dealing with people (or with God, but I'll set that to the side for now). That idea was essentially behind behaviorist psychology, but it's been completely disproven experimentally and theoretically. Doing so took decades of work, but the easy/brief way to look at this is that for input to drive output, that means that internal states are irrelevant (behaviorism's argument was that behavior is all that matters, and that it could be predicted and controlled by sensory input). But it's easy to show that for the very same inputs, output behavior varies widely. Moreover, it's easy to show that with <em>no</em> input, output behavior varies -- something that could not happen if input drove output.</p>\n\n<p>From another POV, the question of whether something is mechanistic vs. complex and emergent is in many ways the heart of complexity science and systems thinking. Again, this is a huge area that I don't want to belabor here, but the short of it is that anything with sufficient internal structure and interconnections creates an emergent system where the overall behavior is not mechanistic and may be completely impossible to predict. We see this all the time in everything from people to economies to flocks of birds. </p>\n\n<p>At any rate the point is that describing people -- much less Diety! -- as machine-like is simply off-base both in terms of the science and the theological sides.</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>set the rules and consequences for my children. I explain them to my children. When my children break the rules, the consequence has already been set. There is no discussion, at least on my end. </p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>I'm guessing your kids may still be pretty young. The idea that "there's no discussion" isn't going to last through their teen-age years!</p>\n\n<p>God isn't mechanistic: consider, why is killing another person sometimes murder and sometimes not? Why is offering sacrifice sometimes honored and sometimes not? </p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>This isn't a mechanism, it's a principle. There's a <em>huge</em> difference. A principle is not mechanistic, based on outward actions, but takes into account adherence to eternal truth and the intent of the individual.</p>\n\n<p>We know that with God it is ultimately <em>not</em> the "output state" that matters, but the internal state that we are unable to see: </p>\n\n<p>1 Samuel 16:7</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>All that said...</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>Now the next question is, of course, are we passed by value or by reference?</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>I dearly hope it's not by reference. I'd hate to see one bad pointer ruin the entire universe.</p>\n</div>",

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+ "body": "I'm not sure how to write this without sounding like a pompous ass or, worse, a jerk. Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to sound, or be, like either.\n\nI think we are arguing differing views. The concept of \"black box programming\" or, in this case, a \"black box interaction\" is by its very nature simplistic.\n\n> No, it's simply not the case that you get the same output for the same input when dealing with people (or with God, but I'll set that to the side for now).\n\nBut that's the whole point of my thought. I never said anything about getting the same output from people, only God. My focus with this thought is on our interaction with God, not with each other.\n\nUsing our understanding of our selves, in any way, in an attempt to understand God is limited at best. Quite possibly, it's counter-productive.\n\n> > the consequence has already been set. There is no discussion, at least on my end.\n\n> I'm guessing your kids may still be pretty young. The idea that \"there's no discussion\" isn't going to last through their teen-age years!\n\nNo, my oldest will be 22 this month. He is the reason there is no discussion *at least on my end* ... we used to go round and round. My youngest, 13, complains incessantly that I'm a dictator because I won't even discuss changing the consequences when he misbehaves.\n\n> God isn't mechanistic: consider, why is killing another person sometimes murder and sometimes not? Why is offering sacrifice sometimes honored and sometimes not?\n\nThese questions have to do with input and output.\n\nCain and Abel's sacrifices were different. Their input was different, so they got different outputs.\n\nNephi's killing of Laban was different from David's killing of Uriah, and they both got different outputs.\n\nIf you go to God in prayer and ask for something, and you get a response of \"Do this and this.\" But you don't do these things and go back and ask again, you'll get the same response.\n\nBut you are correct in that God is not a machine. God will not put up with this kind of behavior for long. I know, from personal experience, that I can annoy God and get a slightly different response, in terms of emotional content. \"Do this and this. **Do not bother me about this again.**\" Nevertheless, I hold by my simplistic assessment that God is a black box when it comes to input from us and output from him.",

+ "body_html": "<div class=\"md\"><p>I'm not sure how to write this without sounding like a pompous ass or, worse, a jerk. Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to sound, or be, like either.</p>\n\n<p>I think we are arguing differing views. The concept of "black box programming" or, in this case, a "black box interaction" is by its very nature simplistic.</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>No, it's simply not the case that you get the same output for the same input when dealing with people (or with God, but I'll set that to the side for now).</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>But that's the whole point of my thought. I never said anything about getting the same output from people, only God. My focus with this thought is on our interaction with God, not with each other.</p>\n\n<p>Using our understanding of our selves, in any way, in an attempt to understand God is limited at best. Quite possibly, it's counter-productive.</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<blockquote>\n<p>the consequence has already been set. There is no discussion, at least on my end.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>I'm guessing your kids may still be pretty young. The idea that "there's no discussion" isn't going to last through their teen-age years!</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>No, my oldest will be 22 this month. He is the reason there is no discussion <em>at least on my end</em> ... we used to go round and round. My youngest, 13, complains incessantly that I'm a dictator because I won't even discuss changing the consequences when he misbehaves.</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>God isn't mechanistic: consider, why is killing another person sometimes murder and sometimes not? Why is offering sacrifice sometimes honored and sometimes not?</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>These questions have to do with input and output.</p>\n\n<p>Cain and Abel's sacrifices were different. Their input was different, so they got different outputs.</p>\n\n<p>Nephi's killing of Laban was different from David's killing of Uriah, and they both got different outputs.</p>\n\n<p>If you go to God in prayer and ask for something, and you get a response of "Do this and this." But you don't do these things and go back and ask again, you'll get the same response.</p>\n\n<p>But you are correct in that God is not a machine. God will not put up with this kind of behavior for long. I know, from personal experience, that I can annoy God and get a slightly different response, in terms of emotional content. "Do this and this. <strong>Do not bother me about this again.</strong>" Nevertheless, I hold by my simplistic assessment that God is a black box when it comes to input from us and output from him.</p>\n</div>",

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+ "body": "> I never said anything about getting the same output from people, only God. \n\nYes you did, in your original post. You wrote:\n> God is a black box. If we give him the same input time and again, we'll get the same output. This is true for us as individuals, communities and nations. And man as a whole as well.\n\n.\n\n> These questions have to do with input and output. \nCain and Abel's sacrifices were different. Their input was different, so they got different outputs. \nNephi's killing of Laban was different from David's killing of Uriah, and they both got different outputs.\n\nThat makes no sense. You're talking about *actions* being inputs, and if the actions are the same, the inputs are the same. But Nephi's and Uriah's actions were the same -- their *reasons* were very different, but now you've left the domain of actions as mechanistic inputs and gone into the decidedly non-mechanical world of motivations.\n\n> I hold by my simplistic assessment that God is a black box when it comes to input from us and output from him.\n\nWell, I'd have to agree it's simplistic. :-/",

+ "body_html": "<div class=\"md\"><blockquote>\n<p>I never said anything about getting the same output from people, only God. </p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>Yes you did, in your original post. You wrote:</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>God is a black box. If we give him the same input time and again, we'll get the same output. This is true for us as individuals, communities and nations. And man as a whole as well.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>.</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>These questions have to do with input and output.<br/>\nCain and Abel's sacrifices were different. Their input was different, so they got different outputs.<br/>\nNephi's killing of Laban was different from David's killing of Uriah, and they both got different outputs.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>That makes no sense. You're talking about <em>actions</em> being inputs, and if the actions are the same, the inputs are the same. But Nephi's and Uriah's actions were the same -- their <em>reasons</em> were very different, but now you've left the domain of actions as mechanistic inputs and gone into the decidedly non-mechanical world of motivations.</p>\n\n<blockquote>\n<p>I hold by my simplistic assessment that God is a black box when it comes to input from us and output from him.</p>\n</blockquote>\n\n<p>Well, I'd have to agree it's simplistic. :-/</p>\n</div>",

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+ "body": "I realize for some it helps to understand God that way because they may be more structured in their thinking.\n\nBut the best definition I can think of how God works is as a loving, all-knowing, all-powerful Father. The same as a mortal father but with all the perfect attributes we find in humanity. I believe our Heavenly Father and man are of the same race of beings. I tend to think when you ask, he answers. But he answers his way, and to our eternal benefit (from his perspective). I'm not convinced it's an input/output fixed structure. Because sometimes no matter what you do the answer is simply \"no\", for reasons known only to him.\n\nAt least that's my feeling on the subject.",

+ "body_html": "<div class=\"md\"><p>I realize for some it helps to understand God that way because they may be more structured in their thinking.</p>\n\n<p>But the best definition I can think of how God works is as a loving, all-knowing, all-powerful Father. The same as a mortal father but with all the perfect attributes we find in humanity. I believe our Heavenly Father and man are of the same race of beings. I tend to think when you ask, he answers. But he answers his way, and to our eternal benefit (from his perspective). I'm not convinced it's an input/output fixed structure. Because sometimes no matter what you do the answer is simply "no", for reasons known only to him.</p>\n\n<p>At least that's my feeling on the subject.</p>\n</div>",

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+ "body": "I've never heard \"black box\" used in that way. The \"black box\" is an idea that we don't know what the contents are or how they work. You're blind to the internal mechanisms. It doesn't imply consistency.\n\nIn that way, I think that our interactions with God can be a sort of \"black box\". If we want a specific action from God, we don't really know what we have to do to get that action, or whether it is even possible to get that action.\n\nWhat you're describing is a mathematical function: \"a relation from a set of inputs to a set of possible outputs where each input is related to exactly one output\".",

+ "body_html": "<div class=\"md\"><p>I've never heard "black box" used in that way. The "black box" is an idea that we don't know what the contents are or how they work. You're blind to the internal mechanisms. It doesn't imply consistency.</p>\n\n<p>In that way, I think that our interactions with God can be a sort of "black box". If we want a specific action from God, we don't really know what we have to do to get that action, or whether it is even possible to get that action.</p>\n\n<p>What you're describing is a mathematical function: "a relation from a set of inputs to a set of possible outputs where each input is related to exactly one output".</p>\n</div>",

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+ "selftext": "I seem to be seeing a lot of images with captions about how much Jesus loves us, no matter what we've done in our lives. I really don't like the sappiness of these pics, but I realized part of what was bothering me is that these all focus on us. How He loves us, even at our lowest.\n\nIt seems to me that the more important concept is that He loved us even at *His* lowest.\n\nHe took upon himself all the sins of the world(s?). He sunk lower than any of us, and He could have backed out at any time, until the price was paid in full.\n\nThrough the pain and agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, the obvious lack of understanding and even support by his friends, the betrayal of Judas, the physical and mental torture at the hands of the Romans--with the support of His community, having to drag the instrument of his execution through the city, stumbling past people spitting on him, throwing rotten fruits and vegetables and offal, mocked while being hammered onto the wood, and finally, all contact with Heavenly Father was withdrawn.\n\nThrough all this he refused to back out of this arrangement.\n\nHe loved us even at His lowest point.",

+ "selftext_html": "<!-- SC_OFF --><div class=\"md\"><p>I seem to be seeing a lot of images with captions about how much Jesus loves us, no matter what we've done in our lives. I really don't like the sappiness of these pics, but I realized part of what was bothering me is that these all focus on us. How He loves us, even at our lowest.</p>\n\n<p>It seems to me that the more important concept is that He loved us even at <em>His</em> lowest.</p>\n\n<p>He took upon himself all the sins of the world(s?). He sunk lower than any of us, and He could have backed out at any time, until the price was paid in full.</p>\n\n<p>Through the pain and agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, the obvious lack of understanding and even support by his friends, the betrayal of Judas, the physical and mental torture at the hands of the Romans--with the support of His community, having to drag the instrument of his execution through the city, stumbling past people spitting on him, throwing rotten fruits and vegetables and offal, mocked while being hammered onto the wood, and finally, all contact with Heavenly Father was withdrawn.</p>\n\n<p>Through all this he refused to back out of this arrangement.</p>\n\n<p>He loved us even at His lowest point.</p>\n</div><!-- SC_ON -->",

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